Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (00:01.324)
Welcome to the NOS DOS brought to you by the Nevada Opioid Center of Excellence at nvopioidcoe.org. I'm your host with the NOS, Bianca D. McCall, asking you to subscribe, to like, to comment, to keep these conversations going. We are Nevada strong and saying no to silence as we fight the good fight to prevent the tragedies experienced by our loved ones and our families and our friends.

communities impacted by the opioid epidemic. And we're back for season three, Help You Help Me. And during our last listening session, we addressed the emotional, the cognitive, and the overall professional impacts of opioid-related crises on those that are working in the field. And what I loved about the NOS Platform always and the subject matter experts that we're fortunate enough to be able to work with is that we

beautifully integrate evidence-based frameworks with powerful and profound lived experience. And to kick off our Help the Helper series, we discussed the invisible injuries of care. We added some language and some perspective to compassion fatigue, secondary trauma, and moral injuries. And today we are joined by Gabrielle Burton, a licensed marriage and family therapist who works directly with individuals recovering from

narcissistic abuse and spiritual abuse and complex trauma. And in our listening session, Gabrielle helped us to get honest about what's happening inside helping spaces, especially in faith communities where leaders are often carrying grief and addiction and the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual crises for others while managing their own struggles in silence. And she spoke directly to the pressure.

Gabrielle Burton (01:37.848)
Thank you.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (01:57.19)
to appear strong and pointed to the lack of supervision and support and the real consequences for communities and congregations who are conditioned to just shut it down and sweep it under a rug and pray it away. So Gabrielle's work challenges us to look at how we show up as providers, not just what we know, but what we're willing to confront and to heal in ourselves.

Because the reality is if we're not addressing our own in injuries, injuries, if I could say that word, they just don't disappear. They show up in the care that we give and in the outcomes for our communities. So no stoves, help me welcome Gabrielle Burton. Gabrielle, thank you so much for joining me today. How are you holding up? And since the listening session, what's been going on in your world?

Gabrielle Burton (02:27.694)
Okay.

Gabrielle Burton (02:39.47)
Okay.

Gabrielle Burton (02:47.882)
Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Thank you for having me on the listening session. It was so much fun. Just was so grateful for everyone that was there and what they all shared. And since the listening session, I've been I've been really great. You know, I've just been busy. Lots of other actually podcasts that I've been on to be able to talk more about more of the same conversations. So

Yeah, and then also just been spending a lot of time with loved ones, which is really great. I know at the end of the listening session, I just really encourage people to have fun. And so I definitely make sure that I find that balance too in the midst of this work, making sure that I just do things to recharge and to play.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (03:35.772)
That's awesome. Awesome. And you're absolutely right. The energy surrounding the last listening session, it was incredible. Incredible. There was such a sense of joy, of hope, in those that sharing their stories and then also kind of what translates to testimonies, right? And as we get into faith-based conversations, and Gabrielle, I wanted to start off. You may not know this, but you are the first subject matter expert that we've invited onto the platform.

leading with trauma-informed and faith-based curricula. And this is special because this opens the conversation and the opportunities for opioid use disorder prevention to faith communities. faith, what we widely know, yeah, no, it's incredible. What we know about faith at communities and the support is in like 12 step programs, right? Within the context of surrendering to a higher power to overcome addiction.

Gabrielle Burton (04:20.792)
Wow.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (04:34.395)
But Gabrielle, and correct me if I'm wrong here, okay? Where is the faith in prevention? And where else are we talking about supporting the helpers and the healers in our faith communities through education, through empowerment, and trauma-informed care principles? Not to be confused or congruent with principality, right? But where's the faith in prevention?

Gabrielle Burton (04:56.674)
Yeah, no, I love that you said that and also I'm honored to be the first subject matter in faith-based community. I'm just grateful to be able to be the person to pave the way in this arena. One of the things that I will say that I do wanna give kudos to the churches that I have seen is that they do do something called celebrate recovery.

And so Celebrate Recovery is actually a really great faith-based program that is often utilized in church spaces. And it really does provide a lot of accountability. is a 12-step program as well. And it is a year program that people are encouraged to attend. I don't know the outcomes in regards to how many people, when it comes to opioid use and things like that,

do know that that is a resource that many churches are having in their churches, which I think is really beautiful. However,

Yes, however, what I will say though is that there is still, you know, a high amount of people that aren't always being very honest or are not utilizing those types of resources, especially when it comes to people in leadership. And that can be because there is so much shame around what it means to be a leader and how are you supposed to present as a leader. And leaders are not going to be exempt from their own

issues and their own struggles and things. so, but if there's not a safe space to really be able to, I like to say, be naked and unashamed within the people that you're doing life with and all of that, then there can be a lot of hiding what's really going on. And so there's, you know, self-medicating, you know, numbing and all kinds of other types of coping.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (06:58.373)
Yeah, Naked and Unashamed, it kind of sounds like a series on Netflix, you know, coming soon. I love that, I love that. And I love that you started with leadership because really whenever we're talking about shifting paradigm and in culture for communities and especially in faith communities, it has to start with leadership, am I right? And so,

Gabrielle Burton (07:05.485)
What the f-

Gabrielle Burton (07:21.064)
That's great. That's great.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (07:22.545)
You said this during the listening session and it really resonated with me. You said that there's this idea of faith leaders carrying a spiritual burden and feeling personally responsible for others' relationship with God. And I want to ask you, how does that pressure shape the way that leaders respond to grief, addiction or crises? And what happens when they don't have that space?

Gabrielle Burton (07:31.117)
Thank you.

Gabrielle Burton (07:35.831)
Yes.

Gabrielle Burton (07:43.885)
Thank

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (07:48.177)
to process their own humanity, including their limitations and their own emotions and fragility.

Gabrielle Burton (07:55.434)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, here's what I will say.

There is no one size fits all of how all faith leaders are going to respond to that, right? I have seen it done really well. I've seen some leaders do a really beautiful job where they, and again, just as we talk about in therapy, people can only meet themselves as deeply as they've met. They can only meet other people as deeply as they've met themselves. And so leaders who have done their own work, who are very open about healing and that they're open to therapy and all of

they do a much better job when it comes to communicating that. However, what we do see, unfortunately, when we see these leaders that are being exposed by their living double lives, they are...

you know, just doing all kinds of moral failure and it's causing so much disillusionment. These are people that clearly are not having real people in their lives to help them work through any of their issues. And so it's really about...

those types of people and leaders, it's more about image management. It's more about what is it supposed to look like versus what does it feel like? And those are then also then what the culture then is created from the top down, right? Because if the leader is not authentic and transparent about what's going on, they have no awareness of, hey, I'm noticing that I'm starting to feel burnt out or hey, I'm really starting to feel like I'm dealing with some compassionate fatigue and I'm struggling or this is a big one,

Gabrielle Burton (09:32.013)
with countertransference in therapy, we talk about that, right? Where a client might be bringing up something in us and it's our job to notice that I'm not able to support this client in a healthier, safe way. So I need to go do my own work and I need to lovingly pass them off. That can also happen if pastors are not doing their own inner work. And so, but I think at times what happens is if pastors are not

and leaders are not open to realizing that they can't be all things to all people and that a lot of this isn't their responsibility around boundaries, then instead of actually being honest about their limitations, they'll actually do things that are more harmful, like spiritual bypassing and trying to say a little scripture to kind of shut it down or minimizing. They will shift the blame.

They will create the person to be the scapegoat. They'll literally just run them off and tell them like, this is not the place for you. This church can't meet your needs, right? And things like that, which can be very, very harmful because as we know, the church is honestly a place for the sick. It should be a hospital for the people that are needing care. And so people aren't gonna come polished. And so again, I'm kind of talking around, but.

what can happen, you know, it's just a lot more harm to the people that they're supposed to be helping because of them not addressing their own areas of needing to be growing. Yeah, that's came out weird.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (11:12.591)
Yeah, mean, yeah, no, double lives. And I feel like in today's day and age, you know, I probably have about six lives, you six to nine lives. Most of us do, you know, depending upon all the roles, the multiple roles that we perform in our capacities, right? Whether it be in community, heads of our households, in academia, workforce, so many lives, right?

you speaking specifically towards the tension between public persona and perhaps having these private struggles leading while we're bleeding. think that's how it was mentioned during the listening session. So in your experience, what does it actually take to create these environments where leaders can be honest about their pain without being seen as the moral failure or as being seen as

less confident or weak.

Gabrielle Burton (12:11.476)
Yeah, I would honestly, it really takes the leader to create that, right? I really truly think that it takes the leader to be comfortable enough to be able to say, hey, this is what I'm dealing with and to create a safe environment, right? Because one thing that I've seen happen, and I've been in ministry most of my life, I've been around so many different ministries, churches in Vegas, just for different reasons, whether it was providing counseling, workshops, what have you.

there is this sense of lacking in safety when people share sensitive information. And it's the kind of, we're gonna pray for so-and-so, but what it ends up really being is just gossip. And that doesn't make people feel very good when they're.

finally taking the time or taking the step to be vulnerable and asking for help. And unfortunately, church leaders also experienced that as well, because if they might have a moment where they're just being, like they feel like they can't even be, like let their guard down with the people that they're.

ministering with or doing life with because of the fear of, if they see this, they're going to think I'm not a competent leader or they're going to judge me. Or, you know, they can't go out to a restaurant and if they have a glass of wine, somebody might report back and, you know, talk and say that they're not a good leader. so I think that all of that pressure around what I think this is the biggest thing is the idea of what it looks like versus what it feels like.

And I think that that's something that we really have to emphasize when we're teaching leaders in the community. What does it feel like? Right? Teaching them what it feels like to have a secure attachment as a leader. How are they a secure attachment for the people that they're leading? And also there's their staff and their team. Does their team feel safe enough to come to their leaders and their pastors and be honest about what's going on? Or is that information gonna be used against them and they are

Gabrielle Burton (14:11.976)
now being, know, opportunities are taken away or, you know, they're being blacklisted or whatever it is, right? Those things happen, unfortunately, in church dynamics more than we like to admit. And in those dynamics, a lot of times there can be more group think and people pleasing because when we think about church, when people go, the big reason is we want a place to belong.

It's a sense of belonging. But what we don't actually realize is, unfortunately, in a lot of these spaces, what we're actually doing is we're trying to fit in. Because belonging, it's Maslow's hierarchy of needs. That is a need that we have to belong. But fitting in actually means that you have to of let go of parts of yourself so that you actually can have a seat at the table. And so when you think about a leader,

how do they create a place of belonging? That means that they actually have to allow themselves to be accepted as they are within themselves and then creating a space that allows other people to feel like they belong, not fit in. And then from there, that then creates a culture of a true belonging where everybody actually has a place where they belong no matter how you show up.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (15:30.812)
Gosh, I love this because you're highlighting this distinction between the actual human desire and need for belonging and fitting in, which kind of sounds like conformity, right? And so I think it's so powerful to distinguish between the two and to elicit these activities and these collaborations, you know, to create an environment

Gabrielle Burton (15:43.67)
Mm-hmm.

Gabrielle Burton (15:52.137)
Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (16:00.624)
to where people can actually achieve that sense of belonging without having to feel like they're conforming or giving up the integral parts of themselves, right? Their moral compass in order to fit in, if that makes sense. And something else, so just off the bat, when you responded with, how do we create these environments? And we said, okay, again, it starts with leadership and something kind of,

Gabrielle Burton (16:17.526)
Yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (16:30.511)
just popped out in my mind, right? It's the age old tale that we've got to solve our own problems, right? We've got to solve our problems and conflicts that we didn't necessarily create. And that kind of, to me, that raises some ethical concerns, right? So in healthcare, for example, we rely on people that are in crisis that are experiencing

or practicing dis-ease and maladaptive behavior, right? We're putting all of the onus and responsibility on that person to reach out and put themselves in front of us when they need help, right? And so they have to be the champion of the solution to problems and to conflicts, a lot of which they did not create, you know? And so it goes back to,

How do we break that cycle where we're putting so much responsibility on people to be the solve for their own problems? And then I'm also, because I'm known for this, I'm known for asking about 20 questions in one, right? So I also want to kind of navigate this through the lenses of culture and culture meaning race and ethnicity, also looking at gender.

Gabrielle Burton (17:55.5)
Thank

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (17:58.278)
for leaders that are female leaders in faith and with leaders that are males that are faith leaders, there's some differences, there's some nuances. And so I kind of wanna revisit the question in the sense of when we're talking about having these multiple identities and roles and public versus private, how does that look different when we look through all of the lenses of culture, gender?

race and ethnicity, economics, neurodivergence, know, all of the different aspects of culture. How does that look different? And how do we form more of a collaborative around creating these environments? So it's not just up to the leader.

Gabrielle Burton (18:34.122)
Yes.

Gabrielle Burton (18:43.879)
Yes, my goodness, I love everything that you just said. I was just on another podcast earlier and we were actually talking about my book. So I wrote a book, it's called The Ultimate Guide to Becoming a Goal Digger, Discovering the Hidden Treasures Within. And it combines faith and mental health. And it actually does all of that, what you're asking about. And it really does help each individual dive deeply into who they are as an individual, right? Because there are so many different ways that we experience the world.

uniquely and differently. And so we're not gonna be able to fit into this particular box and we're not supposed to, right? But unfortunately, like when you have certain systems and things, there is a certain way, like there's a homeostasis, like in therapy we talk about there's a homeostasis and everybody's got a part to play and this is how you need to get with the program. But in order for it to be more of an inclusive space, we have to realize that like,

people are very different and unique and we need to actually be curious and wanting to hear their voice and wanting to hear their experience and bringing them to the table because they have a unique way of seeing the world that that maybe people who are in this this kind of group think space may not think about right because they've learned to conform right this is my job this is what i've got to do this is how i keep my role whatever it is right but but

And I also think too, God is doing a new thing. It talks about that in the Bible. And we have to be okay with realizing that God's gonna move in different ways. And this is, think what is so beautiful and unique is to empower individuals to be able to showcase the things that they are gifted in and how do we support them in moving in that direction.

I will say for me personally, like I said, kind of been in the church my whole life. My dad was a pastor and a narcissist, but luckily never my pastor. And I did grow up in a really great church where they were very empowering of individuals and raised up really great leaders, I will say. Like a lot of the people that I know from that church, like all really killing it. You know, just they're just doing their thing, you know.

Gabrielle Burton (20:57.579)
And other churches may not be like that. And I think it's really helpful when you do help the individual understand what are you uniquely gifted at? What are your gifts? What do you feel like God's asking you to do? How do we get you there? And again, that's what my book helps people do because it's important that in order for us all to be healthy, we've got to feel like we're aligned.

And I think too, like the opposite of loneliness, because we do have a loneliness epidemic going on. The antidote to loneliness is not necessarily being in a relationship, it's actually having purpose.

And a lot of times we are, we're in this wrestling with God, like, what am I supposed to be doing? Like, what is my purpose? And that is a part of the faith journey, is saying, God, like, what are you calling me to do? And in that, it is learning how your unique individual experience has shaped the way you experience the world and how you experience God. And I think creating spaces where we actually want to hear different people's perspectives, not just the one, not just the pastor, right?

I actually I go to a house church once a month and I love it because there are you know, there's a couple that hosts it but

throughout the night, she'll randomly bring somebody else up and just say, hey, I know that you had an amazing encounter this week. Can you tell everybody what God did this week? Or hey, do you want to pray over other people? And it really gives different voices the opportunity to really share what it is that they are hearing from God, like what is going on. And I feel like that is a lot more of an inclusive way of experiencing just heaven on earth.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (22:38.415)
Yeah. I love it. And I know the listeners can't see me, but I'm like, antsy dancing around in my seat because Gabrielle is speaking my language, is in the jam, right? This is the sauce right here. These existential concepts, right? Of life, death, meaning, purpose and freedom. How we interpret and internalize these experiences and conceptualize it as the human experience.

This is all of what drives us, right? Motivates us to wake up every morning, to put one foot in front of the other and to seek community, to seek a source and that relationship and community. And so this is exciting stuff. Purpose and contribution, kind of what you're describing is really a collaboration and a contribution, you know, within

whatever system, you take it, foundation, community, families and schools, if you don't feel like you have a role in how that system operates, you know, and if you're not contributing to the mission, to the vision, and to the culture itself, then you do, you feel very much alone. And when we're talking about loneliness, that is my jam, that is my jam.

Gabrielle Burton (23:37.503)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (23:48.415)
That's great.

Gabrielle Burton (23:52.137)
Yeah. Yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (23:57.515)
That's right.

Gabrielle Burton (24:01.705)
Yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (24:03.225)
And I love that you're out there and you are, you're not only just preaching and teaching, you know, and thank you so much for giving the shout out with the book. We're going to get that information again before we end, but you're not just out there explaining, you know, these circumstances, you're living it. You're experiencing it for yourself. And so since you're out there in these streets and in the community and in congregations and finding community,

I want to know, I want to know, I want the honest answer to Gabrielle. How close or far are we really to faith communities and cultures addressing the call to really integrate spiritual and relational and practical leadership frameworks rather than what you described earlier is that spiritual bypass or spiritual assault throwing scripture or pray away cliche at every problem in the congregation.

Gabrielle Burton (24:33.418)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (24:42.601)
Hmm.

Gabrielle Burton (24:54.922)
Mm.

Yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (25:02.971)
How close or how far are we?

Gabrielle Burton (25:05.002)
man, that's a good question. Here's what I will say. Like I said, I very much have been, been around the block, okay, when it comes to the ministries and all of that. And I, you know, I'm speaking in Las Vegas right now for the listener. So I can only speak on what I'm seeing in my city. I would say that it is a case by case, right? It's case by case. It's church by church. It's leadership by leadership. I've been to some really great,

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (25:13.914)
Right.

Gabrielle Burton (25:34.686)
healthy, mature churches where they do relationships really well and they are loving people really well. And I've been to other spaces where we're still doing the image management thing. We're still doing the cover-up culture stuff. We're still doing the leading while we bleed. We have mean girls in ministry. That's a real thing. And...

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (26:02.577)
I'm hoping, now I'm speaking to the producers in the background, I'm hoping that we're taking notes of all this. These are great. And I'm gonna stop shouting out Netflix. I've done that on a couple of these podcast episodes now. Any streaming service would pick these titles up. I'm just saying.

Gabrielle Burton (26:04.65)
I'm ready.

Gabrielle Burton (26:22.036)
That's right. That's right. Yes. Me and girls in ministry, that's a real thing. And this all comes down to identity work though. Identity. What I will say, the churches that I am noticing are doing it really well. They do speak to identity and they do speak to who you are, image bearers, right? Of God and like, and really speaking to identity. So how close are we? I think we're getting closer. I do think we are getting closer. I do think that,

There's been a lot of shaking up of the church in the last like last year. And I do think that leaders are really starting to wake up. And that's a beautiful thing, right? Because we have to change with the times. There are so many things, there are so many communities that my heart like is broken for because of just how not loving, not kind, not inclusive some of the churches and it just, it honestly breaks my heart as a therapist. I just.

you know, with the works that I do, I'm just like, it just, it blows my mind how closed-minded I think we can be when it comes to Christianity, because there is a lot of black and white thinking, and there is a lot of cognitive dissonance. And so we have to do these things in Christianity because it's like, well, this is what a Christian looks like, and that if someone is like this, then you can't be a Christian.

You have to have a demon or there has to be something wrong with you. And I'm just like, if your faith is not big enough to hold all the nuances of life, of someone being born with a disability, like that doesn't mean that it was a demonic thing, right? Or a different sexual orientation, like all these different things, right? That I just feel can be really harmful to people.

wherever they find themselves on that journey, it really breaks my heart that these spaces have not been very loving or kind in those ways. Now again, there are some churches that are doing a better job of that, but I would say that we have still some work to do. And how we get there, I would say, is by having these conversations, but I also think pastors and leaders,

Gabrielle Burton (28:44.308)
partnering with people in the mental health field because faith can no longer just be about having the correct theology. It also has to be about theology plus psychology because the truth of the matter is the way we experience our relationship with the Lord oftentimes comes from our relationship with our dads. And so if you didn't have a good relationship with your dad and you got some father wounds that can affect the way you experience God. And then

Now you replace it with the human, you go, okay, well, my dad wasn't great, but I'm gonna go to church. Well, now let me try to see it through the lens of this pastor. And if this pastor, well, they are flawed and they're gonna let you down, not if, but when. Now that affects the way you're experiencing God, right? And although we are hurt in relationships, we also heal in relationships. And I'm so, so, so passionate about teaching attachment work when it comes to leadership, because we need to have secure attachments when we are leading.

people, especially in spiritual work. And so when it comes to that, if you haven't ever experienced a secure attachment, you just go straight into ministry. And we know ministry can be like a free for all of like, there's chaos everywhere. And you're like, you know, putting out fires all over the place and your nervous system is dysregulated and people want to come to you for prayer, but then they don't want to be a burden. How dismissive and hurtful that is, right?

And so how do we teach how to have trauma-informed ministry and intentional healing spaces, not only just for people who are going to the church, but also for the people who are leading. And I'll also point this out, you know, from what I've seen throughout many years of doing this work, there's so many people who are in leadership who haven't actually sat down and really truly asked God, this where you need me to be right now?

Some of them actually have big dreams and callings that they are called to do, but they actually are like, well, if I leave, who's going to take on my role? Or, well, I don't want to leave because this is my job. But now your heart's actually, like your heart posture is not actually in the right place.

Gabrielle Burton (30:55.109)
Now you're more people pleasing because you're worried about disappointing leadership than being obedient to what God's asking you to do. And now your health is affected, your marriage is affected, your family's affected, and now your kids don't want to go to church because you're miserable and you're, you know, it's just a vicious cycle where we have to take ownership for our own spiritual and mental and emotional health.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (31:19.435)
Wow. You said so much on that. I don't even know where to begin, although I'm going to go where I feel like I'm being called to go. First, I do want to acknowledge and also express gratitude for you bringing a voice to the communities and to the cultures who are experiencing and have experienced church hurt.

Okay. And the reason why I want to start there is because, you know, especially in the recovery spaces, you know, you have a lot of people that are in recovery, that are in recovery and healing, not just from dangerous relationships with substances or with opioids, but with having broken relationships, fractured relationships with

selves and source and in some experiences with, you know, in terms of religiosity with churches and having church hurt, right? And so, but in treatment, you know, when we talk interventions and we talk treatment for opioid use disorder specifically, very rarely do we see the recovery and healing

from our spiritual wounds, right? Those attachment injuries manifested into spiritual injuries. Rarely do we see treatment modality that's addressing that, right? Again, where is faith in prevention and some of these other aspects of, and not just in like 12 step or postvention, right? Like when can we do early intervention and begin surrendering some things to higher power?

We're surrendering all things to higher power, but also surrendering in that moment to say, hey, I need help and I need healing with regards to my spiritual self. That needs to be all throughout continuum of care. So I appreciate you identifying and bringing a voice to that very real circumstance for a lot of our folks that are listening and a lot of the folks that we work with is that church heard is real.

Gabrielle Burton (33:19.592)
Yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (33:39.634)
churchhood is out there, right? And when you talk about these attachment injuries again, and how our relationships with significant adults in our lives, right? And I could totally geek out right now. I'm gonna tell you, I'm practicing a lot of restraint right now because this is all in and up and through the existential subject matter that I love and that I adore. But when we talk about

Gabrielle Burton (33:40.115)
fruitless.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (34:08.657)
our essence, right, our inner voice, that is a presence that predates our recorded memory, right? It predates our own memories. A lot of us, can't remember when we were born, you know, the actual moments that we were born. We can't remember until, you know, maybe toddler, you know, preschool age is when our first memories are there, but our essence, our inner voice existed before that, existed at conception, right? And so,

the intelligence of our inner voice and our essence is it predates where we've kind of begun to dumb down when the adults in our lives, as we're infants, right? The adults are shaping, you know, us, our interpretation of that essence are shaping that inner dialogue with language that they're putting, they're projecting onto us, right? So if we don't have great relationships with those significant

uh, uh, adults in our lives, um, then that's going to translate to having a, a fractured relationships with our essence, with our, with our inner voice and the inner dialogue becomes toxic. Right? So with all of that being said, cause like I said, I can go deep. I can go deep Gabrielle. With all of that being said, you said this during the listening session too, that people can only meet others as deeply as they've met themselves.

Gabrielle Burton (35:09.886)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (35:16.915)
That's right.

Gabrielle Burton (35:23.633)
Yeah, I love it.

Gabrielle Burton (35:33.575)
Yeah, that's right.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (35:35.067)
Right? So what I just talked about was a deep meaning or meeting and knowing of self, right? So for helpers, whether it's in faith spaces or behavioral health, what does that deeper work look like in practice? Right? And how do we build systems to support that level of self-awareness and accountability?

Gabrielle Burton (35:55.431)
Yeah, it's absolutely, it's really ensuring that our leaders are getting the help they need, the care they need, the support they need. And then they also really making sure that the people that they are, like their teams, I always say like it starts with the pastor and then it trickles down to the team.

that they're also ensuring that their team is going and getting the care, that they're allowed to go talk about anything. Nothing's off limits, right? They need to be able to go and get an unbiased opinion on what's going on, right? We're not telling them that they can't talk about certain things. No, you need go talk to somebody and making sure that you're getting unbiased care. I also think what could be really helpful is having, honestly, either a mental health person on staff or somebody that they can consult with outside of.

because what I have experienced is like for a lot of people on staff, they're experiencing a lot of the same type of stuff. I've heard this happen, like again, many different churches. It's almost the same stuff, different church, right? But it's like things that happen at churches, they're like, we can't even really talk about some of the stuff. And it makes me question like, how is this even a church? Just some of the coercive stuff that happens or, know, there's a...

called cover-up culture. So there are certain things where we're silencing certain people's stories. We're really protecting the leader of the church, but we're not worried about what happened to them. And those kinds of things really make somebody have a moral crisis here, right? Because this is my leader, my spiritual pastor, my leader, who's telling me to do something that just doesn't sit well with my spirit. Or sometimes what they do is they are outsourcing responsibility.

But then you got to think about it. Is that what God has you to do? Is that what you're what God has you to do? Or are you doing this because you're trying to be obedient to the leader? And there's a term that I think Jerry Flowers coined. It's called lethal loyalty. You're being loyal to the point of this could cost you your life, your spirituality, right? And what that does eventually when you start to sit back later on down the road is going to catch up to you and you're going to realize, dang, like I really did just

Gabrielle Burton (38:10.741)
just, you know, everybody told me to stop talking to that person and I just, I ghosted them when I really cared about that person and I didn't actually hear their story or, you know, like I really did lie about something and I really shouldn't have done that, right? Or I withheld information or whatever that was where they're doing these types of things to manage because in some of those spaces they're more worried about managing versus meeting people. And so,

you know, having a mental health person on staff or someone that they can go to to be able to give an outsider perspective. And then also I would say creating a culture where talking about mental health is actually open, a culture of vulnerability, where it's safe, where someone can actually come up to you and just go, hey, how are you feeling today? How are you, no, how are you really doing? Right?

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (39:03.762)
and wait for it, wait for it, yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (39:06.522)
and actually truly cared, actually truly listened, not the, how's it going? Keep moving. But I, hey, how are you feeling? And it shouldn't be foreign, right? People should be able to, like leaders and other people should be able to go up to pastor and say, hey pastor, how are you doing? I'm checking on you, right? And to be honest about that, right? Not the, we can't talk to pastor. We're just gonna, that doesn't feel, we're supposed to be a team.

We're supposed to be connected and vulnerable. We really need to be able to create that type of safety. Not where it's a one way street, they're checking for you and they're managing what you got going on, but it goes both ways. Building that relational reciprocity and integrity across the board. Because once we feel that way as a team, now we will actually create a culture that feels that way. Or vulnerability doesn't feel like, oh my gosh, that's too much. Why are they sharing all that? Oh no, we appreciate.

the vulnerability here. We all, love it. We love you as you are. And that creates a space where people are more open and vulnerable.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (40:08.645)
Gosh, lethal loyalty, it really sticks, it really lands, especially I think in this space, right? And in recovery spaces, because I was a guest of someone in an AA meeting and I heard the stories and it's anonymous, so I'm not breaking confidentiality, but I will share just this statement that just.

Gabrielle Burton (40:18.009)
Mm-hmm.

Gabrielle Burton (40:24.476)
Mm-hmm.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (40:34.381)
it kind of just changed my perspective on the work that I do and how I engage and show up for people. But the statement was that the use of substances or a particular substance was, it saved their life at one point and until it didn't, until it then turned and attempted to take their life. And what

Gabrielle Burton (40:38.908)
Gabrielle Burton (41:00.316)
Yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (41:03.043)
addiction, what those, you know, carrying on those relationships with substances, what it really is, is it's this lethal loyalty to, hey, at one point this felt good, you know, and this transcends, you know, talking about, you know, opioid use disorder, talking about faith communities, this transcends to all relationships, right? Any relationship that we're in that feels good, that serves a purpose and has a function at one point.

Gabrielle Burton (41:15.548)
That's right.

Gabrielle Burton (41:25.468)
Yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (41:32.518)
but then becomes toxic at another, we tend to have this lethal loyalty and hanging on to things far beyond what is meant and what is healthy and helping in our lives. So powerful stuff, powerful stuff. Thank you for sharing that. I also, would love to hear a little bit more about...

the work that you're doing right now, where your practice is headed in the near future and how we find you, Gabrielle. For those that are listening that wanna connect, how do we find you? What are you doing?

Gabrielle Burton (42:08.846)
Yeah, thank you. Well, I'm in an interesting transition right now. But like I said, I have my book and I'm moving more towards the coaching space actually. So I do offer coaching in regards to narcissistic abuse recovery so people can schedule a call for that or even buy a package around working with that. But I also am

starting to coach out of my book and wanting to move into also working with teams, ministry teams and helping people really work on trauma-informed care in regards to ministry just because this has been going on way too long and I wanna see people.

I'm more worried about retention than recruiting new people to come to the church, right? Like, how about we keep the people that are there? And that is where the prevention work is, right? Is like helping make sure that our teams are healthy and they are equipped on how to just provide the best care and or, you know, to be mindful of maybe this isn't it. Maybe I'm not in the right position, right? Because we think about it, if you're playing a game, right?

If you're not in the right position, you're not gonna be very effective, right? Like you're over here playing opposite, you should be playing defense, right? Like whatever it is, right? Like you're the sports person, not me, but you know, like, yeah, so I'm just like, you know, we gotta make sure that we're in the right position. And a big part of that is just really taking a deep look at everything, our mental, our emotional, our spiritual.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (43:24.337)
Thank

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (43:34.319)
I know, I love this. I'm like, ooh, ooh, I know this one.

Gabrielle Burton (43:48.784)
and just making sure that we are where we need to be. And if it's in a ministry team, great. If it's not, if it's outside and it's in the workforce, also great. Because I love what you mentioned about, you when we talked about purpose and things like that, something that people have felt is when they go to the church, if they're not contributing or they're not doing something in a certain way, it's like they're not valuable or they're not buying into the mission. But when I say that I know some of the most amazing Christians who are

doing their callings outside of the four walls, meaning the work that you're doing, the work that we've got Dinesh Amingo and what she's doing with her work. Natasha, there's so many amazing people that are actually doing their work at a greater magnitude. And it may not necessarily be that it needs to be within the four walls. I just wanna see more people aligned, whatever that looks like, so that we're able to show up effectively. So all that to say.

That's work that I'm moving into more coaching people into getting into alignment. And you can find me on Instagram. My Instagram handle is Gabrielle Burton Voice. And I also have a podcast called Hosting Heaven. It's on YouTube. And it really just combines faith and mental health. And it helps us just have more of these types of conversations.

I always like to say make sure you have one foot on earth and one foot in heaven, know, just so that we are, you know, making sure that we are, yeah, just walking out everything in a healthy and aligned way. So, yeah.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (45:24.209)
I love it. love it. speaking to everybody, right? Because I feel like, again, lot of what we talked about today, it transcends the subject matter at hand, right? Really breaking everything down to relationships, relationships with ourselves, with the world, the relationships in between. So now I want you to take a moment and

Gabrielle Burton (45:31.621)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (45:39.431)
Yeah.

Gabrielle Burton (45:48.998)
Yes.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (45:53.79)
and now speaking to the one person that's out there that you hope hears this conversation that may have experienced some of the coercion and the conversion culture, right, from our faith-based communities. What do you say to that person? What do you want to resonate out of everything that we talked about today? What do you want that person to take away from our conversation? And this is the mic drop moment.

Gabrielle Burton (45:58.372)
Mm-hmm.

Gabrielle Burton (46:13.862)
in.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (46:22.213)
This is, I'm transitioning, I'm trying on some different ways to describe this moment. I'm settling around boom, boom or bam, you know? But this is that moment, Gabrielle, this is that moment. What do want that person to take away?

Gabrielle Burton (46:36.721)
Yeah.

I just would say that God made you exactly who you are and there's no surprises in who you are and he loves you exactly as you are. And if you've never did anything more, you are still worthy of love and acceptance and belonging. And he just wants to meet you. And although we are hurt in relationships, we also heal in relationships. And so I just hope that you don't stop.

working on healing your relationship with God, yourself and others. And even though you may have experienced some harm in other spaces, other faith-based communities, there are safe spaces and I hope that you just continue to seek those out because you are worthy of finding those places to heal and grow.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (47:32.205)
Thank you so much and Gabrielle follow Gabrielle and and get this totally engaged in in her content to to help illuminate the path to those places, you know to those safe spaces That that we may be looking for and that all humans were all desiring that that sense of belonging, right? You drop some some nuggets you drop some names and some nuggets We got Maslow's and all sorts of stuff drop scripture. I mean it was

Gabrielle Burton (47:36.071)
Ha!

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (47:59.877)
It was an amazing time with you today. Thank you so much, Gabrielle, for joining us on the Nostos. Your insights into the moral injuries and the specific pressures within faith communities, it's given us in our Help the Helper series, a powerful foundation. I'm so grateful. And to those that are listening, especially those of you who spend your days holding space for everyone else, remember that your humanity

is not a hurdle, it's the heart of the work that you do, right? And you can't pour from an empty cup and you certainly cannot heal while you are still in hiding. So if this conversation resonated with you, please subscribe, like, and share it. Someone in your circle might be carrying a struggle in silence today and this could be that bridge that they need. And I'm your host with the nose, Bianca McCall.

Gabrielle Burton (48:34.459)
Mm-hmm.

Bianca D. McCall, LMFT (48:58.809)
encouraging you to stay safe, stay grounded, and keep fighting that good fight. We'll catch you on the next episode. Take great care, Nevada.

Gabrielle Burton (49:10.76)
Thanks.