Bianca McCall: CASAT Podcast Network Welcome to the NOCE Dose Opioid Crisis Unplugged. The NOCE Dose Opioid Crisis Unplugged is a concise and insightful podcast offering a deeper dive into the realities faced by professionals combating the opioid epidemic. Join us as we reconnect with expert panelists from our listening sessions, providing a behind the scenes look at their work and insights into the pressing issues of prevention and diversion, harm reduction, opioid use, treatment, recovery and reoccurrence prevention. Welcome to the NOCE Dose brought to you by the Nevada Opioid Center of Excellence at www.nvopioidcoe.org. I'm your host with with the NOCE, Bianca D. McCall, going behind the front lines with professionals and community members alike who support the Opioid Response programming in Nevada State. And we are gathered here today to debrief after the latest NOCE sponsored listening session which successfully delivered incredible insights into the recovery continuum and recurrence prevention for Nevadans overcoming the impacts of of Opioid Use disorder. Today's guest is Daniel Fred, Director of Nevada's Recovery and Prevention Program, better known as NRAP at the University of Nevada, Reno. Now, Daniel has been in long term recovery since 2002 and he proudly shares his life with his wife Christy and their three amazing daughters. Daniel is a Texas Tech alum coming off of a heartbreaking but thrilling performance in the Men's Elite Eight round of the NCAA basketball tournament and the women's team also fell to Florida in an invitational tourney. So the NOCE Dose production has in its notes we are not to discuss anything Florida related. I repeat, do not say the F word during this podcast segment. All right, well, Daniel is a former member of the Collegiate Recovery Program at Tech and has brought his passion to recovery support to UNR, where he earned his Master's in Human Development and Family Sciences with a focus on addiction treatment. He's helped shape future professionals through teaching earning Faculty of the Year not once but twice, and previously led national efforts at Transforming Youth Recovery. Daniel's all about recovery, all about education, all about advocacy and breaking stigma. So this is a goggles assist for what will be rizzed up as a conversation that's for my young people on the line. Let's get right into it. Daniel, you talked about the power of community and helping young people learn how to have fun while being sober. And that seemed to really resonate with the participants on the line. And we've heard so many people teach, about we need to teach people to be uncomfortable and to Expect to deal with the derogatory side of recovery. Right. Which is, it sort of perpetuates the self imposed stigma, don't you think? so teaching people to have fun while sober is so profound. Right. So moving. So let's get to the. How do we do that, Daniel? How do we make these kinds of fun experiences like a recovery karaoke in your example, how do we make those more accessible in prevention efforts? And what does it really take to build that sense of belonging on a college campus, no less, where the assumption is that there aren't too many sober spaces outside of the classroom?

Daniel Fred: Yeah, I think it, I mean it starts with us in the field prioritizing it more than we do. You know, I think we all come from a, a theoretical background and a therapeutic background. And so we, we enter recovery whether you come into it as like a person in recovery first. we come in from a professional lens. And so we understand like recovery takes like facing your demons first, facing your trauma first. Right. And so we all like understand like recovery goes in and get in the core first. And so I think like we've have this like foundation that like you have to deal with what caused it first. And so we've built like recovery really on this premise, which is not wrong, but like you gotta deal with the issue. But I think the problem that we've, we've related is like it makes it so boring in a sense, if I can say that is like it's so like always dealing with your stuff and so which is important and I'm not trying to like demean that, but that's like such a small percentage of, of what recovery really is. And it's, it's a really important percentage, but that's not the most important thing, you know, And I think as, especially when you get to college, you know, I think those, those things in community like that, that vulnerability and all of that is really important. But creating spaces that's built around that is, is it's really hard to do. And I think even so now is, is vulnerability is really hard. I think we were, you know, we've talked a lot about it. Is, is it's really hard for students to have interpersonal skills. You know, I think we were talking about, it's easier for students to interact on apps and interact with AI, you know, and even with like hookup culture is happening more on dating apps than it is in person. They're not asking each other out in person. And so when we're asking people to come to like group Therapy and to get vulnerable together, it happens less in person. So I think it's even becoming more important to create spaces that is fun first than, like, deep, kind of therapeutic first. And then it's more likely that they're going to create the spaces of fun. And so I think, you know, for us is what I realized is when I took over here at NRAP in the last few years is it was really hard to get students to come to groups, and groups just wasn't really a thing like it used to be. And. But once we started doing more, you know, fun stuff and the students started engaging in that, that's where they really started connecting. And that's the thing that students miss the most. And if I thought back to when I got sober in college, it wasn't necessarily, like, the hard times. We always focus on the hard times, you know, when we're sober. But it wasn't the hard times that I think were the most difficult to challenge because you're ready for those, like, you know, those are gonna be hard. The things that always caught me off guard is like, how do you celebrate? It was the celebrating that was hard to do when you're sober. Like, how do you celebrate? Because the shame hits you out of nowhere. Like, I shouldn't be celebrating. I don't deserve this. But also, what do you do to celebrate when you're sober? And so I think it's something that. The first step really is we, as a field, we need to acknowledge that we really underplay the importance of fun. We underplay the importance of that. And. And I think. I mean, it's hard to even as a grant, like, how do you write in, you know, things that, you know, a karaoke machine, I don't know, you know, TVs, you know, and I think here in. In, up in Nevada, we have some of the most beautiful mountains. You know, I know you're down in. In the desert, so no, you know, but up here, you know, we have the Sierras, and I'm just teasing Vegas, and it's beautiful, and there's lots of beautiful areas down there. But. But there's, You know, we have so much stuff out here, but it's really hard to get funding to even enjoy it. And so I think there's. There's a lot that goes into the idea of. Of even, like, how do we fund things that are fun, right? And so it's just like, everything that we do is. Is really built around, like, therapy and getting in and, like, fixing what's wrong which again, is important, but I don't know if that's what keeps people in recovery. That's what fixes the issue, but like, it's not always what keeps people in it and it's not what builds community. So that's, I think that's where. I think we've. We missed the boat a lot.

Bianca McCall: Yeah. It's so interesting. You've kind of described, this new normal. Right. So it's not enough to say, yes, we need to normalize recovery, you know, in order to break down the stigma, it's. We've got to redefine what normal is and especially for our young people. As you're working with predominantly young people on, on a college campus, you have to get to the core of the issues, you know, the core of the, the cause for disconnection. and you have to embrace this, this new normal, which looks like engaging with, you know, know, tech applications and AI and things. And, and it's a different F word. I know I said I wasn't going to use the F word, but it. Fun. Fun is the word that I'm getting at. and, and you, you talked about celebration, you know, which is, I think another C word that oftentimes is lost in translation in the therapeutic models. Right. Celebration. Community, yes, is important and we try to foster these therapeutic communities, but we're not seeing our young people engaged, to your point, in teaching people how to celebrate, in ripen and move past the shame, which is akin to stigma. Right. and when we start to conceptualize how do we do this, and again, going back to how do we normalize in the moon Normal. How do we normalize recovery? I think it comes back to language. From the listening session, we talked a lot about how language is important in your case with young people in recovery. you know, you're speaking of the popular artists among the demographics. Right? Like, like, quoting J. Cole, or Ken Dot, you know, and for, for those of us, that are not, consider ourselves young people, that's Kendrick Lamar, for those that are taking notes. Right. But, you're referencing, songs and quoting popular artists. And, and, and so I'd love for you to talk about how and who is designing, these, these prevention campaigns with intentions to evolve and to reflect the culture and the values of this generation. Right. Especially in ways that, that can boost emotional res. Resilience and, and mental health.

Daniel Fred: I mean, it, it, it takes all of us, so it takes. So I have to stay, in tune to like the recovery world, right? And so because students are attuned to their culture and they're, they're still going to be attuned to what we've always used, right? So they still are going to use words like substance abuse. They're still going to use words like tweaker and stuff that is always kind of attuned to the culture, right? And so, I'm, I'm, as a someone who's, you know, talks about this is why we don't use substance abuse because no one ever beats up their drugs, right? And so I'm always like, this is, this is what we use. Person first, language. But then, you know, I've. We were talking about our material, and we were having a hard time connecting with students and getting students into our lounge. And finally the students told me is like, you're making it sound like this is a sad room. And I'm like, it's recovery focused. And we're, we're putting recovery. And they're like, yeah, but it still sounds like you're going to come in and just do like therapy. And they're like, it sounds like it's still like a kind of a gloomy room. And they're like, it needs to like they wanted words like student focused and student led and like wellness. And so even the language that I thought was still, it still was recovery focused. They wanted to like add their student spin on it. And so it still takes, takes both in like them taking the language and kind of putting, you know, not necessarily like Gen Z language, but student friendly language, you know. And then also I think taking it to, to where I'm looking at the opening up recovery and make it. Making sure it's expanded on recovery and people know that everybody's welcome here. And then they're also going to, going past that to make sure that they know it's fun. And so, I think that was what opened my eyes is they're saying like, you're, you're making sure people know it's open to recovery, but you're still talking about the issues a lot. And like when I come, when I came in this room, I still thought it was going to be about the issues, but I needed the support. So I still came in the room and I was like, this room is fun. This room, like people are like singing like there's. They were doing like blind, like I told you, like blind karaoke. Which, was not my idea. They just were doing it. And I'm like, this Game is I didn't want to do it, but like, they were like, it's your turn. You know what I mean? And it's like they just. But they're just having fun. They're just like being themselves, you know. And so they're like, you need to find a way to describe what the room is like. And this language describes the issues still. And so, like, it was them kind of with their experience helping me bring it past that. And so I think has to have both of us in the room and them kind of helping describe kind of their experience. because without us. Us being, you know, the ones that are in the field and helping kind of push the language forward, and then with kind of their experience helping, I think maybe normalize it, you know, a little bit. and. And also show, I think. And again, recovery is not. And this is what I always tell students. Like, I don't. It's hard because we're talking about heavy issues. Like when we talk about eating disorders and you say addiction or you talk about self harm, like a. They're very stigmatizing things. People have walked through those things. Like, they. They clench up a little bit because you feel like you're either. You're being called out and the spotlights on you, even though it's not in this classroom. You know, we're trying to get students and let them know we exist, but also like, they're heavy issues anyways. And so you feel like if you walk in this room, it's going to be a heavy room anyways. And so if we're always talking about, like, we're highlighting, like, this is what this space is for as those people, then you're going to associate the room with those issues. And so what they started saying is, is finding ways to talk about, like, that's just the thing that kind of gets you through the door. That's your like, ticket, so to speak. And to really explain what the room is like, is about recovery, which is fun, which is exciting, which is engaging, which is healing, you know. And so really, like, you know, we talk about fun and like, that's what recovery is, you know, when we, we. I think I can't remember if you and I were talking about it before, but I've talked with a lot of students about this. I realized at one time when, you know, I'd gotten a few years in recovery and I was way more outgoing and like, way more hyperactive and funny and engaging, at least I thought I was, but when I first got sober, I was like, the most shy, the most withdrawn person. The only way I was like I am now as a person was when I was drinking. And so what I realized is like in recovery is where I finally became like who I thought I was when I was drinking. Does that make sense? And so recovery is like fun and exciting and engaging and so like trying to Like, I think what reduces stigma is, is patent recovery as like fun. It's not just reducing the stigma. It's trying to like really peel back the layers and show that it's really fun, it's really good. And so that's what they, the students have really shown is like, it's not just about like making it not that bad. It's really trying to show that it's really cool. You know what I mean? And not in a, like, weird, I don't know, like a, after school special, you know?

Bianca McCall: Right. But no, I love that, I love that. just visually I could see when you said paint the picture of recovery. And to me there's you know, creativity involved in painting a picture and creativity being able to, you know, recreate, reshape your identity or how you see yourself, how you view yourself and the relationship, between self and the world. you also spoke about sort of reading the room and how there are roles and responsibilities from the community or the community, the outright community that involves family members and friends and perhaps on a college campus, you know, you're talking about educators and, and support supportive adults, safe adults, that are in the environment. But, but it takes all of us. You know, I think is what, what you said and, and with that type of community focus. I want to ask you, you know, and this thinking about the, the full recovery continuum, from the moment that someone decides that they need help, to, to long term support that they can receive in recovery, how can the community, how can we read the room and create that safe space, each taking on our roles and responsibilities? But how can family members and educators and perhaps the most influential, the peer networks and other young people, that someone in recovery can affiliate with or identify with. How can each of these stakeholders step in and step up more effectively? And where do you see collegiate recovery programs fitting into that continuum in a meaningful way?

Daniel Fred: Yeah, that's good. I, yeah, man, that's a lot. I think, let me answer. Like the first one, I think with, with family members, you know, I, it's such a. Addiction and mental health issues are such a heavy issue and they, they come with such hurt. You know, I think this, this Disorder.

Daniel Fred: Is one of the only disorder that has such a profound impact on everybody around us. And so when someone gets help, it's, it's almost like someone still has their finger on like the red button, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like you're still in fight or flight and you're still waiting. So it's, it's so hard to embrace the person and you're just waiting for the other shoe to drop. and so it's hard to like, like you're so reluctant for hope. You're so reluctant to feel like this is going to be it. So it's, it's one of those things to where like, it's, it feels like such a serious issue for a while until like, it's almost like you don't believe it's going to actually get better until it starts to get better. So I think it's one of those things to where like, there's a reason that like, we don't really like, get hope until it gets better. You know what I mean? But I think part of it is we have to just really start speaking life over people. In the very beginning, Albert Bandura, who did a lot of stuff, right, but he talked, yeah, but he talked a lot about self efficacy. And he had three things with self efficacy, right? One of them was vicariously, right. Seeing other people do it. the other one was small attainable goals. And the last one, which I love was self fulfilling prophecy. And this was the only way I've, he's the only one that I've heard do it in a, like a positive sense. Use self fulfilling prophecy. Which is another words of like us telling ourselves that we can do it and other people telling us we can do it. And the, I think the reason, when I got sober and the reason that it, it stuck for me when it did was I had gotten out of like just to probably go, maybe too much information. I don't know how personal you guys usually get on this podcast, but I'll just go personal. I had gotten out of jail, for like the second time in a month. And I'd gotten out in my. The person that's picking me up handed me the phone. It was my dad on the phone. And I fully expected my dad to yell at me like, what is wrong with you? Why'd you do this? This is like, you're a terrible person. Like I'm disowning you and rightfully so, right? And, my dad gets on the phone. And he says, like, hey, this is not who you are. You still have a lot of life to live. I know you have a purpose. You got a destiny. You gotta go after it, but you gotta let this life go. And for some reason, like, I was at just a low enough spot and like, it clicked for me. And that was the. And, I know, like, that was the thing that clicked for me. And I think, like, you know, if we can do that for people that are at that spot, and it's people that have hurt us, and it's people that, like, we don't trust, like, if we can just like, help them separate from the shame, like, this isn't who you are. You have purpose. Like, I think that's the shift they can make, you know? And, I think it's the same with, with college. Like, I started college, like, right away, and we make people wait because we're so afraid. Like, we let fear keep people from taking chances because we're like, we don't want you to risk your sobriety. And I went into college with like 2 re. 2 weeks sober. But I had a support system. Like, I had the collegiate recovery program. So, like, I had to go to a meeting, an AA meeting, a STEP study. You know, I had a hundred students around me that were in recovery. So I had a really solid support system. And so I think, you know, collegiate recovery programs are everywhere. Throwing people into a college sober, by themselves, in a recovery hostile environment is not advisable. But with a collegiate recovery support, that's a whole different story. But, like, I immediately had success, you know, like, I had failed out of college. But then you go back sober and you make the dean's list your first semester. All of a sudden my self efficacy is blooming. And like, I'm like, okay, I can do this. And so, like, I think we let fear of relapse, fear of, you know, them failing, and then, like, we feed into that shame. And so I think, like, we feed into that and let fear kind of hold us back. And we don't realize, like, how we feed into people's failure a lot with that. And, and so I think that's my. I don't know, that's my own opinion. I think we, we let the. This disease concept. And I don't, I don't mean to, like, step on, on people's toes too much with this, but this disease concept that we've have of like, it's gonna get you and it's like, lurking. you know, I think we've We've let the fear of that, which I'm not saying that's not a true concept, but we've let the fear of that kind of control all of us too much. Instead of realizing that like we can still like speak life over people and there's still, with a, with a proper support, you can still take chances. If, if you have the support and if you have victory in those things, man, it's going to strengthen you and it's going to strengthen your recovery.

Bianca McCall: Yeah, I, I, I gotta tell you what, so this, this rang so many bells for me. you started off with Bandura. I love Bandor. And, and whenever you get into this experiential, existential, psychodynamic space, you know, I, I start to, to bob and weave in my chair a little bit. You know, I was really excited that, that we led with this. but you're, you're absolutely right. Right. Like, and first of all, Daniel, thank you so much for, for getting personal. You know, when you mentioned you weren't sure how personal to, to get on this podcast, I, I'm, I'm just going to throw out a name here, Oprah. I'm going to throw out a name, Oprah and say that, you know, hashtag goals, you know, if we can get some, some to the realness, to the root and like you said earlier to the core of this, conversation, all the better. But, but in all seriousness, I appreciate your vulnerability, and sharing your personal story. And there's so many ways I know that we've had plenty of conversations outside of the, this platform. so we, we, we are familiar with each other's story, through and through or stories through and through. And, and there's so many intersects when you were talking about, getting that phone call from your father, and highlighting that just one person, a family member, a friend, a peer, but somebody that is reminding us of our purpose. I had a very similar experience and I know that you know this, in the parallel experience of suicidality, right. And being in this moment of despair, being at whatever we define, and then become refined by our rock bottoms. Right. having that conversation, and especially if it's coming from, I ah, believe if it's coming from a parental figure or somebody who, you look up to somebody who, you know, you value that relationship, it's been a safe relationship, you know, for that person to remind you of your purpose. It's so powerful. So powerful in at least, you know, when we talk about that, making that you're at that decision point and you are embracing this idea of recovery, such a powerful thing, to be there for someone in that way. And then it also reminded me I had a conversation just last night with a person in recovery, and related to my story with being a suicide loss survivor, I was sharing with this person that after I lost a teammate to suicide, I experienced survivor's remorse. And for some of the reasons that you might expect. You know, the thinking, hey, if I had said something, done something, I could have changed the outcome. Right. but understanding in my little bit older age that I didn't have the language, I didn't have the skills, to be able to process suicide even just on my own going through my own mental health challenges. so, so that was a lot to put on, the younger, the younger me. But, but I was also experiencing this survivor's remorse because I felt like, and when we get into the experiential, existential, psychodynamic stuff, I felt like my why was, was my prophecy, why was my fate my future, to live, to, to survive this despair, to survive the darkness that I was experiencing. And why couldn't that be my, my teammates as well? You know, I had such a poor self concept that I thought I should have been the one to go and let's keep this other beautiful human being around, you know. so survivors remorse experience at such a, such a unique, unique level or way when we talk about suicide, when we talk about even the dangerous relationship with substances as well. And the person in recovery who I was talking to last night shared that sentiment. That's one way we were able to connect, through experiences that he says, you know, I experienced survivor's remorse from the people that I was using with one, person overdosed and then the other person went to prison and so he experiences survivor's remorse. And so going back to what you said about we want people to believe that they can do it, I, I, I, I'm also, I think we'd be remiss to, to not talk about that they deserve, you know, that, that celebration, they deserve the experience of, of recovery as well. Right. Because there might be some survivors remorse from all of what is experienced, you know, when we're in that darkness.

Daniel Fred: Yeah. And especially like that staying on that idea of like deserve like if you look at addiction from I love Gabor mate. And like if you look at it from his perspective of really is people that get Stuck in addiction or really just using. Or mental health issues are really just using whatever it is to solve a problem with the best solution that they have at the time, right? It's a response to human suffering is what he says, until it becomes a problem. And so, like, we all experience human suffering. The only reason some people don't fall into it is they have different supports or they have other issues or they have other privileges, right? And so it. It's. It's not really like. And. And I think. I mean, if. If we can really get existential and like, deep into this, I think we even have some own, like, stigma about addiction into. And people in recovery in our own fields, you know, I think I love, Simon Sinek, you know, and he talks about, like, his. The way he talks about leadership, really similar. About the way we talk about recovery. And one of the things he talks about leadership, and one of the key components is courage. And the way he says that you build courage is you just need someone, one person that believes in you and says, like, I'm there for you. Right? And it's the same thing that we need in recovery, right? And I think, like, really, like, people in recovery are no different than anybody else. It's just that, like, this is the only thing we had to deal with, the problems we had, right? And other people had similar problems. Like, our trauma may have been the same or different may. Like, everybody has trauma, everybody has suffering. You know, this is just kind of what we fell into. And maybe it. It exacerbated other traumas or not. You know, I think it's just it. It doesn't make us really different than anybody else. I don't. I don't know if it does. I think it's just, you know, if. If you're looking at Gabor, mate, it was like, this is the solution that we had. And so I think it. It's not that we're worse or, you know, less deserving. I think, you know, using that language than anybody else. And I. And I think it just takes courage, which. All we need is somebody that believes in us, you know, and so going kind of full circle is what do we need from peers and family members is we just need people that believe in us and people that, you know, speak. Will speak life and tell us, I got you and I'm there for you, you know, which is. Is hard to do sometimes when it's. That's the person who's hurt you and betrayed you or, you know, it's hard to trust, right?

Bianca McCall: Right. Powerful stuff. Believe in me. And I'm also thinking name drops and F words, right, because we've, Daniel, you've done some name dropping, man. And I'm over here just super excited about all the, all the names, mate. Sinek, Bandura, Oprah. You know, I got all the good ones in this conversation. So, But believe. Believe in me. Believe in me. Absolutely. And, and you know, we, we talked about community, we talked about family, friends, educators, you know, all these things. and at some points I, I think we have to talk about, you know, like law, law enforcement, legislative, you know, in the spirit of the Nevada legislative session. Right. Happening right now. Hacking to us or, or for us. we'll have more clarity that after June 2nd. But, but Daniel, tell me, what's your take on naloxone? The naloxone bill, that's requiring law enforcement and medical staff to carry Narcan. And can you let us know how is this shifting, the student community's response to overdose prevention and saving lives on the ground and on campus?

Daniel Fred: You know, it's interesting because, I mean, so on campuses, Campuses is always a little different than the community. Well, I want to say we've taken a little different turn than the community. And so the campus has had a shift. and the last. So every two years we do a, like a health survey. So the public health. It's the association of like, college health, I don't know, survey. So it's like a campus wide survey. And what, what the last one did two years ago, they're doing the. This two year cycle now, as they found is, like the. When asked in the last 30 days if you've used these drugs or whatever, it was like zero, like 6% had used opioids, and it was I think like 13% that had used coke, cocaine. And so what we're seeing on campus is a huge spike in like cocaine use and a drop in like Xanax and pills and all that stuff. And so we saw a shift away from the felt need for naloxone because of that. And so we almost reached. We had done a lot of like, outreach and stuff around naloxone, and we almost had reached like saturation. So we did like, some stuff and then we did two. And like, nobody came to our, like, any of the trainings. And we were like, we. At first we were like, what is going on? Because we didn't have the data. and so what we're realizing is because students are using this. They think it's not a big deal. And, like, obviously fentanyl isn't really like, the thing it is here on campus, like it is in the community. It's just a different. And so students are like, weed use is really high. alcohol and coke, like, those are the big things on campus now. And so we're. So the education is around like, hey, it still can be, like, contaminated. and so on campus, it's more awareness around, like, accidental poisoning, if we can call it that. Right. Which I hate to use that terminology. And so it's. It's almost like we're back to, like, educating about the possibilities. So we've gone back a few years on campus, so it's almost. It's a different type of thing. But, you know, so it's. It's. It seems like it's in a little different of a bubble here. but as far as. As I think the bill goes, I mean, obviously, like a good thing. You know, I think having folks carry it and having, was. Was hugely, like, popular on campus for a while. And then it's just kind of, you know, every four years. That's the thing about. I love and hate about being on campus is every four years it completely changes, you know, with. With the students. And. And so. And. And the trends change. You know, for us, like, weed is. Is a huge deal because of the percentage, that's Of THC that's in it. And students are vaping. And so, like, the amount of psychotic breaks that students are having, like, the. The. The sickness that the, like, almost like ulcers that students are getting because of how much they're smoking and it's in pins. And so, like, we're dealing more with. With that and education around weed, because students see that. And so, like, I don't want to say this because it almost goes against all the messaging, but naloxone is kind of not at the forefront of our messaging as, like, coke and weed right now, if that makes sense. Just because students are, like, having so many issues from them.

Bianca McCall: It does, it does. And I think the way that we've kind of looked at all of the drugs, right, and especially the ones like you said, that are trending, among our young people and on campus, that there's the. There's a connection, right. Sometimes it's not about the identified substance as much as it's, especially in recovery, as it's about the lifestyle, the intentional actions and the mindset, of recovery and so I would imagine that although the messaging may have shifted from more of like the traditional opioid, use, prevention and things like that, I would imagine that the, the core, again using your language, the core of the messaging when it comes to recovery as a lifestyle, as an intentional set of actions and a mindset, I, I would presume that that that was pretty still, that's still pretty consistent.

Daniel Fred: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think too like, I mean there's still the education. I mean there was the, the case of, was it in, in Douglas where you know, the vape pens had like fentanyl in it and stuff like that. And so we're still talking like every student should have naloxone. you know we've passed. Our university already has naloxone. So we're, we're covered by the bill that's in because our university has naloxone up in its health center. And so that we were kind of ran the bill that's already like had done what the bill's running. In fact the person who pushed the bill through was a student worker at NRAP years ago. And so we have like the bill or the bill up there are the naloxone up at the health center. And we have some in NRAP for students. And so we educate them on. Students on that. And it's shifted recovery a little bit with the drugs changing because harm reduction and moderation isn't available for marijuana and cocaine. And so we have like, we want students always to have naloxone. You should always have naloxone. and then also it's becoming more back to like a little more abstinence based. But like still recovery is recovery is recovery. Right. Like we want you to just be safe. and so that's kind of the. Where we're always at is we just want you to be safe and we want you to take care of yourself. And you know, you can't recover if you're not here. And so you know, we, we push that. In my class, I teach a class on campus that I've taught forever, which is the Intro to addiction. And I always tell students like if you're going to have parties or anything, you should always have naloxone. And it's on campus for a reason. There's very low barriers. Like the training is online. So you can go and do the training online and go up and get the naloxone and you never know what's. I mean I can't imagine this is going to make me sound super old, but I can't imagine trying like being in college and doing drugs these days or anything. Like the risk is just so high, you know, but like you should always have it with you because you never know like what's, what's contaminated with, you know.

Bianca McCall: Right.

Daniel Fred: And I love, I, I love the, the work that NOCE is doing because of stuff like that.

Bianca McCall: Yeah, no, thank you. Shout out to nos. Shout out to the NOCE dose. I love it. Thank you so much. And, and yeah, I, I too have, have been feeling a little bit, older, these days because you're, you're right when, when we consider certain protections and things like that, you know, it's, it comes across to younger people as, you know, oh yeah, this is, this is unnecessary or this is just kind of fear based. But, but really it's after you've lived some life, and for you, you're seeing every four years kind of the evolution of a space of recovery. I mean, it's very suiting, I think, for us, to have these types of messages. And speaking of messages, Daniel, if there's one person out there right now who's heard our conversation, not just listens, but, but hears our conversations that we had today, what do you want to say to that person? What do you want to resonate with that one person who, who needed to hear from you today, who needed to hear all those names and all those F words? what, what, what do you want that person to take away from this conversation?

Daniel Fred: Yeah, I mean, I think first off, I hope Florida wins it all to prove that Texas Tech wasn't that bad. No, just kidding.

Bianca McCall: It was a great game. It was a great game.

Daniel Fred: Well, I guess, I mean, if we're staying with that, I guess the other F word is the importance of making your free throws. but no, I think in all seriousness, you know, I think the theme that we've talked about, you know, is really important. You know, shame is, Shame lies to us and we don't even realize it's lying to us, you know, and what shame says is you're stuck here and you're never going to get out of this. And this is who you always are. You know, and so if, if you hear anything from this is, I hope that you hear that. You know, if, if you're struggling with mental health, if you're struggling with depression, if you're struggling with, you know, suicidal thoughts or addiction or, you know, wherever it is that, that thing that's just keeping you down. I just hope that you hear that. You don't have to be stuck there. You know, it's not a death sentence. It's not a you. You can really change, anything. The power of, of. Of just the desire to change is, Is incredible. and it really just takes you wanting to change, and there's support out there, there's people out there, and it really just starts with you wanting to do it. And even if it's the millionth time you've tried, it can be the time. And so don't give in to the shame. Don't give in to those thoughts. And, like you said, believe in me. Believe in yourself.

Bianca McCall: Yeah. Believe in me. I love it. Daniel, thank you so much for joining us today and bringing your passion and your wisdom and, and your energy to this conversation. your work on recovery education and youth empowerment, it's truly changing lives and we're grateful to have you on this show. will you please share, how can professionals in the recovery and recurrence prevention spaces connect with you and pick your brain more about how to engage young people that are in recovery?

Daniel Fred: Yeah. well, let's see. The best places they could email me at, dfred. That's dfred@unr.edu. They, can go to our, website, which is www.nvrap.com. and check out our website there. Awesome.

Bianca McCall: Awesome. Thank you so much. You have got to connect with my guy, dfred@unr.edu. Thank you so much again, Daniel, for joining us. And thank you. Thank you to everyone who tuned in today. That wraps another episode of the NOCE Dose. And if you enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear this. Let's keep breaking stigma. Let's keep building community and create spaces for recovery. Until the next time, stay safe, stay hopeful, and be well. Thank you for listening to the NOCE Dose: The Opioid Epidemic Unplugged. We hope that you found this episode compelling and informative, and we ask that you please share this episode with your friends and your colleagues. And if you want to learn more, please visit our website at www.nvopioidcoe.org. the NOCE Dose podcast is brought to you by the Nevada Opioid Center of Excellence, or NOCE. NOCE is dedicated to developing and sharing evidence, informed training, and offering technical assistance to professionals and community members alike. Now, whether you are a care provider or a concerned community member. NOCE provides resources to support those affected by opioid use. Funding for this activity activity was made possible in whole or in part by the Nevada Department of Health and Human Services DHHS Director's Office through the Fund for Resilient Nevada CASAT Podcast Network This podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the Center for the Application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.