The NOCE Dose: Opioid Crisis Unplugged is a concise and insightful podcast Jillian Anderson: CASAT Podcast Network. Bianca McCall: Welcome to the NOCE Dose: Opioid Crisis Unplugged. The NOCE Dose: Opioid Crisis Unplugged is a concise and insightful podcast offering a deeper dive into the realities faced by professionals combating the opioid epidemic. Join us as we reconnect with expert panelists from our listening sessions, providing a behind the scenes look at their work and insights into the pressing issues of prevention and diversion, harm reduction, opioid use treatment recovery, and reoccurrence prevention. Welcome to the NOCE Dose brought to you by the Nevada Opioid Center of Excellence at nvopioidcoe.org I'm your host with the NOCE, Bianca D. McCall, going behind the front lines with paraprofessionals and community members alike who support the opioid response programming in Nevada state. And we're gathered here today to debrief after the latest NOCE sponsored listening session with today's special guest, Jillian Anderson. Jillian has been working in maternal health for over 20 years, specifically in perinatal mental health, for the past five years. And she is a marriage and family therapist, a licensed alcohol and drug counselor, and the program coordinator for the perinatal mental health program at Quest Counseling. Now, Jillian also oversees a community partnership with the women and children's program at Crossroads, where quest provides multiple mental health, harm reduction and substance use recovery groups and other services for participants and their children. Jillian, how are you today? Welcome. How have you been since June Jillian, first, how are you today? Welcome. How have you been since the last time that we enjoyed the conversation from the inaugural listening session event in June? Jillian Anderson: Yeah. Thank you so much. It's so lovely to be here. And, yeah, I'm feeling okay. Yeah, some, you know, it can be tricky to be. To, like, hold all the balls. There's lots of, you know, stuff going on, like, work wise this morning for me. So there's, like, that piece present. But overall, I've been great. And, yeah. Excited to get to talk with you today, Bianca. Bianca McCall: Thanks so much, Sheila. And, yeah, in this space. Right. And for all the professionals out there, that are listening. Right. what are their four Mondays and then Friday? Right. And so, yeah, I completely understand. Coming up into the listening session. Coming up into the podcast, where a lot of us are juggling, right. So many responsibilities, wearing so many different hats. that seems to be kind of the nature of the work these days. Right. and I want to, you know me, I'm a bit of a disrupter. Okay. Jillian Anderson: one of the things I like about you. Yes. Bianca McCall: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, no, and we're in some of the most unsettling times right ahead of perhaps the one of the most significant political events, for many generations. Whereas we know that fear, that stress, that anxiety, have a potential to impact and really imprint on mothers and their unborn children. Right. How do political decisions around healthcare, uh, healthcare access and substance use policies impact mothers And so I want to start off, by asking some challenging questions, right. And wanting to get an idea. Jillian, from your experience, how do political decisions around healthcare, healthcare access and substance use policies, how did they impact mothers and families in the communities that you serve? Jillian Anderson: Oof. Yeah. Right into it. Bianca McCall: Right into it. Jillian Anderson: All right. Starting with politics. I like it. yeah, the answer is, like, there's a tremendous impact because the policies that are implement, like, the policies that are written to are implemented in the community, and the way that they're written affects how they're implemented and then affects how people can access resources, services or, like, restrict those resources and services. And so, yeah, thinking about the ways like that maybe, like, wic. So women, infants and children is a really important, program that really impacts, like, pregnant and newly parenting, pregnant and new moms and, like, such an important piece to be able to access. And so the way that that policy is written is really impactful for women in their families. even, like, things like Tanf and Snap, the diaper bank, like, being able to access that. I know that's, like, less policy oriented and more of a community project, but, yeah, absolutely. And healthcare, oh, my gosh. I could talk about, like, the politics of healthcare for a long time in the way that it impacts, pregnant and parenting. Women being able to actually, have access to the healthcare that they need and transportation, then to that health. There's so much that can go into it. So I can go in lots of different directions, but, yeah, I think that politics weighs heavy on the minds and hearts of everybody that we work with, not just our clients and the people that we serve, but also, like, our colleagues and family. And it's a really important time, so. Bianca McCall: Absolutely. You talk about many different areas within maternal health that need more attention And you talk about the many different areas and are there specific areas within maternal health that you feel need more attention? from. Jillian Anderson: Oh, my gosh, yeah. I didn't even talk about, like, the substance use piece for maternal health. Like, yeah, so, absolutely. I think being able to provide, support and access for. For people who are pregnant and who, may be using, but are considering different routes of, like, okay, well, maybe I don't want to be using anymore. Like, how do I access supportive care, non judgmental care, non stigmatizing care? Like, how can I get access to help and support. because pregnancy is a great opportunity, a great time to provide support for people, especially around their relationship with substances. So being able to say, like, okay, like, maybe you've been using opioids for years and you became pregnant accidentally. What do you want to do about your opiate use? Do you want to just talk about it? Right. Like, that's the first step of being able to create, like, an environment that's accessible so that the person feels like they can come in, that they won't be judged if they're visibly pregnant and say, like, yeah, I'm using. Bianca McCall: Yeah. You know, I've been thinking a lot about this since, since the listening session, we've talked a lot about kind of the stigma that surrounds, you know, substance use disorder and, the experiences surrounding risky substance use, right. And how it's highly criminalized in a lot of communities. there's a lot of, from a, care perspective, as we look at, people, who use drugs that are engaging our healthcare system and behavioral healthcare systems, there's a lot of almost blame, for their symptoms, for their experiences. There's a. Well, you're using drugs and so you are to blame for your symptoms, for your experiences. And that's also a part of our fight against stigma, that surrounds this. and I also feel like with pregnancy, there might be a similar kind of, kind of stigma, right. with women, as we think it's your fault that you're pregnant, it's your choice, and if it's accidental, it's still your fault that you did not protect yourself enough, from being pregnant. Right. And so parallel, sure. but still some of these same concepts. How does cultural diversity fit into the conversation of perinatal mental health And so with that being said, Jillian, what do you think? or how does rather cultural diversity. Right. Fit into the conversation of perinatal mental health and harm reduction? And also, when we talk about cultural diversity, I'm not just speaking about race and ethnicity, but gender. Right. The culture. Gender culture, sex culture, workplace, or corporate culture. Right. And how do all of those cultures and subcultures fit into the conversation? Jillian Anderson: Yeah, I think in so many different and important ways, which is why being able to, especially as professionals who are gonna work with, pregnant and parenting women and people from all different backgrounds, being able to say, yes, if, a black woman goes in for perinatal mental health care or for any kind of medical care, that her experience is, affected and impacted by her race, by her gender, by, like, her gender identity, by. There's so many different pieces that come into it for that particular person walking into anywhere to get care and to like to be able to hold that and say that that's not her fault, but she certainly has to deal with that. And sometimes it's conscious and sometimes it's not. Like, how do you navigate? How can you make, like, systems and agencies and even policies that are welcoming to all people from a, diverse background being able to say, like, no matter what your history and no matter what your experience, we want you to be able to access care and support and resources, especially if you're asking because it's such a vulnerable thing to ask for care, to say, I'm in pain, I'm suffering, or I don't know if I'm ready to change. I think I might be. I don't know if I can like, to be able to hold that and say, okay, like, let's look at what that looks like for you from all the different lenses of your life experience. Bianca McCall: Well, what is. What is the scope of the problem look like? I mean, we talked about cultural diversity in terms of race, ethnicity, you know, workplace, gender, sex. What about economic culture, you know, so how does the conversation perhaps need to change? when we're talking about the socioeconomics of the mother and the family that's engaging the system for their mental health needs and their harm reduction? Jillian Anderson: such an important one. That's where policy has so much implication. We saw a big change during COVID when there was that extra child tax credit that was available to families where children and families were literally, their lives were transformed because they had a extra access to resources. And so when that went away, that was like, that was a huge shift, again, to like, okay, well, what can we do? Because we know that money doesn't buy happiness, but as sure as shit buys a stress free life. And that's nice. And so it's really important to be able to say, like, yeah, money is not, like, the most important thing, but it's absolutely key. And. And being able to say, too, for people who have not had, like, socioeconomic, like, the benefit of good socioeconomics growing up, like, how can we teach that? So, in working with, like, folks who come through crossroads, like, one thing that we see often is they're, like, we really. These women are like, we really want to give our kids a good life, and so we want to, like, buy them things because that helps us feel good. It helps our kids feel good. It helps the kids know that they're loved. But also, is it practical, then for like their life situation. And so that's a life skill. That's not like a deficit on their part. Their part didn't, they don't know it. They didn't learn it growing up or that maybe they learned it growing up, but then, like, their life circumstances changed. They have to relearn for what that means as a parent. But yeah, being able to have like, access to like, socioeconomic means and just other like community supports can be so, so vital in not only like giving a person, like self confidence. Right. It is such a great feeling to be able to be like, I can provide for my kidney and it's such a shameful feeling to have the thought I'm not able to provide for my kid. And we know that shame feeds addiction. People who feel shame seek out alleviation from that shame. And unfortunately, drugs work really well for that. It can be a really vicious cycle to get stuck in quickly. Bianca McCall: No, absolutely. Gosh, so many great things from what you said. and I know I've been, I've been throwing out different terms in some of the questioning. I've been talking about harm reduction and things. And really the focus of the listening session was talking about diversion and so going upstream, a lot of education, a lot of awareness building, and also community building because as you mentioned, when we talk about addiction and shame driving addiction, the antithesis of that, the opposite of that is not abstinence, but rather connection. right. And when we talk about the efforts in diversion, it's about, connecting people with, the resources, with the supports that, are tailored to their individual, their person centered needs. And so when we're talking about, diversion. Right. And the education piece, I know from the listening session, some different things came up. we talked about aces. we talked about, motivational interviewing as kind of the communication that surrounds. How do we, empower people to be invested in their own, recovery. As we can support parents, particularly moms, that with all of these things being said and with some of the cultural diversity, efforts, that you mentioned, can you talk about how does that translate into practice, at quest, you know, at crossroads, you know, in the spaces that you're in, that in the services that you're providing and offering, how does that translate? Jillian Anderson: So, like, I really like, believe, and I think I might have even said this in the listening session, that like, as we can support parents, particularly moms, that they then can have a different experience for their kids, their kids can have a, hopefully like a healthier experience in their childhood and then their kids can and like on going out, like radiating out into the community. And so I really believe that, like working, like doing effective work with moms and parents of all kinds, like all parents really is like a form of diversion because being able to say, like, how can we, like notice your, how, how your childhood impacted you and how can we almost like re parent you? So, we do process groups at, ah, crossroads. It's one of my favorite parts of my job. And it's like getting these women together in community. They're all moms. Sometimes there's kids there, it's all crazy and wild and all these women with different backgrounds, different ways that they have been parented, different ways that they parent their kids, and being able to say, all are welcome here. Your experience is welcome and validore. There's no, we have a rule that's don't yuck my yum. It's like the lady's favorite rule. And you're probably familiar with having run groups and trainings a lot. but it's great because it just says, like, everybody's experience is different and it's all welcome here. We're not going to judge, but it's a place where we can be curious about it. And like, what about how you were parented worked for you? And what about how you were parented didn't work for you? And we know that in times of stress, we go back to what we know, and that's totally true with parenting. Like, when we are stressed out, we're going to go back to how our parents parented us when they were stressed out. And there's some harsh patterns in there. There's some intergenerational trauma that has gotten passed down. And so being able to like, notice those patterns, help be curious about them and adjust them with mindfulness. Like, hey, your dad really yelled at you when you were young for, you know, not doing the dishes. Is that how you want to parent your kid? And most women are like, no, that was so scary. And it was really, confusing. Okay, cool. Well, then how can we help you regulate and notice when you're dysregulated so that you can regulate yourself, so that you can come from a place of regulation as you interact with your kiddos. And of course, we're not looking for perfection either. I am a parent myself. I get dysregulated. I go back to bad habits. It happens. But it's just being curious and kind to ourselves and being able to re parent ourselves in a way similar to harm reduction, motivational interviewing, and community building. It can be so powerful to sit in these groups with moms and watch them lift each other up, push each other up. Hey, I saw that when you first got here, you were really struggling. And look, look where you're at now. Like, you know, you have, like, x amount of sobriety, if that's applicable to them. And you've gotten rid of, like, that toxic relationship, or you've reconnected with a, supportive relationship. And, like, this belief in self develop starts to develop. Like, oh, I can, I can do it. And it's not, I can do it all the time, every day, perfectly. Bianca McCall: It's. Jillian Anderson: I can do it right now, in this moment. Bianca McCall: Yeah. Gosh. So, and it's, it's, it's, it's funny to me that you brought up the example of, you know, just that. How did your parents raise you when they were stressed? Right? And you brought up the example of doing the dishes. And that's the first, that's the first thing that popped in my mind is I thought, being yelled at about the dishes and how they're not all the way clean. And the dishwasher, you know, didn't, didn't completely wash the dishes. And I used to just get stressed and be like, why do we have a dishwasher if I have to rewash the dishes? And just how much stress that caused? A, and for me, thinking as a young person, I'm thinking, I can't wait till I'm a parent so that my kids can do the dishes. It was all about me not having to do the dishes anymore. So you brought up that entire toxic stress, scenario for me, too. And I'm thinking about just kind of the motivations, for each and every one of us that are doing the work and wondering for you, jillian, what are your motivations? To do the work that you do and to work with mothers, to work with families. Jillian Anderson: Yeah. I first got started working with teen, moms, actually. and that was like 20 years ago, which is so wild to me now. and it just was really inspiring. Like, these, like, young women who are like, yeah, like, I got pregnant, and now I have a baby, and now I'm trying to figure it out. Like adolescence and motherhood, boom, same time. And like that. And just noticing the changes that, like, a group, a group supportive environment. Like, the group met 2 hours once a week. But the big change that it had in these young women's lives and then the lives of their kids and then the lives of their friends. And again, that just kind of ripple effect. that was a big first motivator for me to do this work and continue to be interested in what it means to support parents, what it means to especially support moms who I think have been just under supported for so long. The expectations are, like, pretty wild, like, culturally, generally, and individually. And so it can make a big difference, I think, to be able to say, like, all right, what's it really like to be a parent? What's it really like to be a mom? And, to, like, I think, bring some light to that situation of, like, is this working? Is this working for our community? Is this what we want for moms, for dads, for parents, for their kids? And if it's not working, how can we change it? Like, yeah, like, how can we have, like, a community that is more effectively supportive of people who are struggling in isolation? It's wild to me how many women I have come in and I do the evaluation, and I'm like, what do you do for work? And they're like, oh, nothing. I'm a stay at home mom. I'm always like, ah, that's work. Like, that's big work. That's really important work. And the fact that we have this expectation, too, I think, for women who are coming out of, addiction, coming out of an unhealthy relationship with substances, coming out of maybe toxic relationship, like romantic relationships, trying to manage and process stress and trauma, then while also being a parent, then also saying that economic piece that you talked about. About. Yeah, well, okay, you also have to find a full time job and find a place to live. And in Reno, like, rent is wild and there's nowhere to rent, and it's all expensive and, like, and do that and also, like, be a good parent and self regulate and, like, try to have enough time and attention to, like, be with your kids. If there's some rebuilding of relationships that needs to happen, like, there's just not enough time. Not enough time to do all that well. Bianca McCall: And gosh, to taking a look at, all of the roles that mothers are engaged in leading. you talk about, yeah, there's some, economic factors. There's, factors that have to do with, your relationships, all these things that may lead to increased risk for substance use and things like that. There's a strong correlation between abusive relationships and poor mental health and the toxic relationship piece, really stood out to me. And I wondered, from your experience, from your research, and application, do you see, or I guess, if you can help, kind of describe for us, what the relationship is between, those that are experiencing things like intimate partner violence, domestic violence, and any of those the toxic stressors in relationships. can you describe what that positive correlation is between, those experiences and, what you see from mothers, and perhaps challenge mental health? Challenge perinatal mental health? Jillian Anderson: Yeah, I think there's absolutely a strong correlation between anybody who's in an abusive relationship. Whether that's emotional, psychological, physical and psychological abuse, I would say is like, probably even more painful for moms. Because not only then are you kind of like made to feel like you're not good enough. there's already that cultural narrative that moms are generally not good enough, generally not doing enough. And then again, putting other, factors and filters on that of socioeconomics, of race, of sex and sexuality and like, workplace and like, that can really weigh heavily on somebody already. And then if they're in a relationship where they're constantly told they're a piece of crap, they're not. They're not good enough. Whatever they do is not good enough. Or there's like, gaslighting of like, oh, no, it didn't happen that way. Then there's this, like, extra emotional mental load. On top of the emotional and mental load that moms often carry as being like, the default parenthood. And so that's tremendously heavy. And what we know is that people need a break. Nobody can be under that amount of stress and trauma consistently. And so if there's history of substance use or like, any even interest in substance use, then that puts them at more risk of saying, well, I need a break. And the only way that I can think of getting a break is this substance which I know gives me a relief from my anxiety, a relief from this depression, or, this need for control, to control things that I don't have control over. Bianca McCall: From what I understand. Perinatal mental health can help prevent adverse childhood experiences, depression And please, help us all to understand the scope and the reach of the perinatal mental health, services. But, from what I understand, there's a lot of parent training involved. And when we talk about diversion, from risky substance use and addiction, and I also mentioned during a listening session, we talked a lot about the adverse childhood experiences as well. can you speak to just the significance, of preventing adverse childhood experiences. Which also lead to risky substance use and addiction? experiences. So can you. Can you talk about how that fits into the perinatal mental health and the parent training? Jillian Anderson: For sure. Yeah. So, perinatal mental health. like, is a little bit new on the research. Well, not even that new now. But now we know it's much more than postpartum depression. It's. It can be, perinatal depression, anxiety, OCD, bipolar, disorder, trauma. And all of these are mental health conditions that typically, cause someone to feel more disconnected. More disconnected. Right. Like, depression. We kind of go in on ourselves. Anxiety. We're searching for connection, but it's not, like, feeling meaningful. OCD kind of same. Or, like, trying to, like, organize so that we can feel safe and connected. And so all of these specifically in the perinatal period, which is, like, during pregnancy and then for a year after, would they foster disconnection rather than connection. And what we want during that period is a period of attachment, like, deep and healthy attachment between the parent and the child. And perinatal mental health absolutely can get in the way of that. And so, being able to recognize it and validate it and call it what it is can be extremely relieving to moms of, like, oh, it's not just that I'm a bad mom. It's not that I don't love my baby. It's that I have postpartum OCD, and I'm, like, so terrified that, you know, he's gonna get sick, and so I'm trying to protect him by not touching him. That is so much more adaptive of a story, rather than, well, I'm a bad mom, and I can never keep him safe, and he's just gonna be unsafe. And it's. Everything is so scary all the time. Or, like, depression of, like, I. My child would be better off without me. I don't know how to care for them. Like, it's a really intense period, right after a baby is born, like, that newborn phase. And I would say, like, in many indigenous communities, especially, it's a time of gathering and of, like, community support. And now, in our culture, that is not what happens as often. It's a time of more isolation and just like, oh, well, you're the mom, and you're just supposed to know what to do. Yeah, here you go. Home from the hospital. Here's your baby. Bye. And so being able to say, like, what is parenting? Like you said, kind of education, coaching, like, giving, like, instruction that used to come down through, like, more like, family. Family of origin, family of, like, creation. That part is missing. And so moms especially, are feeling this, like, deficiency. Like, why can't I do this? What's wrong with me? And that, again, is not a great environment for healthy attachment. When a baby whose needs are all dependent on their caregiver, they're supposed to have, like, great needs. And so being able to say, I can come from a place of understanding, validation for myself, and then I can regulate and be able and available for attachment for this baby, but also not 24/7 like, that's not how it's meant to be. It's not just supposed to be like, you know, mom or primary caregiver and baby all the time alone. Like, they're supposed to be breaks for moms, breaks for people so that they can take some time to reimagine their own identity. Like, identity is a big topic in perinatal mental health of, like, who was I before? Who did I imagine I would be after I gave birth? What was my birthing process? Like, how did that impact my identity? So, yeah, and so if to bring it back to aces, sorry, I got a little distracted there. but yeah, to bring it back to aces, if a parent can feel mostly regulated and provide mostly secure attachment to their kiddo, then hopefully that can help prevent some of those, like, some of the aces adverse childhood experiences. And some of those are also community based, right? Like, so a parent, like, dying or going to jail or something like that. Like, those are community, like, community topics, but, you know, not being hit or not watching somebody be hit. Like, those are places that can hopefully come from regulation of, like, okay, how can I keep myself regulated enough so that if I do experience, like, postpartum rage, which is a common experience, that I can know what it is, I can know how to cope with it, I can know that I deserve to get medication, I can get help. I don't have to self medicate with other pieces. It's okay for me to say I'm feeling rageful. Bianca McCall: Yeah. You know, and as you're sharing, I'm thinking about, all of the clients, patients, consumers, that I've worked with over the years, and some of the use cases, you know, with consumers of mental health services, they become pregnant. They, have to reduce or remove certain medications and things like that that have helped manage their mental health, prior to pregnancy, and experiencing, that trauma, really, of no longer being able to manage your mental health symptoms, throughout your pregnancy. and then some mothers that have also engaged in risky substance use prior to the pregnancy, that have, you know, remained abstinent, during the pregnancy in the. In the best interest of the, of the child, but you know, what we all know, when you're. When you're challenged, you know, with. With the risky substance use histories. it's it's more than just abstinence. It's it's again, looking at those connections, right. Those community connections. And if we. If we still maintain, connections with the community where you. You once kind of actively used, these substances. And the people and the places and all that that persists, as your immediate surroundings, it's difficult. I would imagine, going through the pregnancy, having the child and still being in this environment that's unchanged and still having some of these patterns. Some of these relationships that are unchanged, in Jillian. Are there resources that speak specifically to mothers experiencing mental health and substance use This brings me to kind of question because I know in hospitals, Right, I know Sunrise hospital for many years was showing videos, to new mothers, about things like safe sleep and all these other kind of protective factors. Building protective factors. but I never saw anything. And I don't know if it exists, today. Or if this is something that you are involved in with the agencies that you work with. But are there resources, videos, content, something that actually speaks to, the experience of a mother who, has experienced or engaged mental health and substance use treatment? systems. Jillian Anderson: Yeah. So there's a few that come to mind. So there's postpartum support international, which I think got put in the chat, in the listening session. I think Christine put it in there. And it's a great resource, that is kind of education based. There's online support groups. There's a hotline and a warm line that parents can call, and they also are great about saying like, it's not that you're crazy. It's not that you're a bad parent. Like, you have a mental health disorder and you can get help. and there's also the cara plan of care that is being implemented. And so, Yeah, that's kind of like, I guess not so new. But it's been in the works for a while. Where, people who are identified in hospital settings of having used during their pregnancy, are supposed to be offered this cara plan of care. That is a support plan that says this is how you keep your baby with you. This is how you can get a social worker or a mental health therapist or a substance use counselor or a case manager. Like so that as you go home, those supports can be implemented for you. So that your baby gets to stay with you. Because that's the other like, really scary piece. And why pregnancy and substance use is such a vulnerable time because there's a real fear that of, like, the child being removed. Yeah. And so, yeah, so care, a plan of care is a, is another, like, newer initiative. That policy, wise, is kind of like in the works. Bianca McCall: Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that. And if there's any other, peer, reviewed sites or research programming, or evidence where you. Where you go to find that evidence based information with regards to perinatal health and, as well as diversion, if you know any of those that can you share where people go to get informed. Jillian Anderson: and so, like, generally, I guess, where I'm at in my career now, I'm like, I don't read as much peer review articles and stuff. I am a mom myself, so I don't have as much time. but really, postpartum international is kind of like the cutting edge as far as research goes for that. And so that's really probably where I would go. They're a great resource for both professionals and, clients, like, people who are looking for that kind of resource. And so I think that that's probably where I would start and then see what else is out there. Bianca McCall: Yeah. Yeah, no, thank you so much. Let's talk about how professionals in the prevention and diverging spaces can connect And let's talk about how professionals in the prevention and diverging spaces can connect with you. What can they call you for? How can they get in touch with you? Jillian? Jillian Anderson: Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I work at an agency, like, we talked about, quest counseling. And, we have a perinatal mental health program. We have, myself, two other, certified perinatal mental health clinicians, one other who's trained. And I'm constantly trying to recruit people because we have, like, a lot of need. And so, yes, you can reach out to me at quest. You can, like, our website is pretty user friendly and a good way to contact me. my email address is usually pretty good. And yeah, I'm always happy to, like, talk and chat. Perinatal mental health, particularly as it, relates to people who might fall into, like, underrepresented groups as well, like, who have experienced substance use. yeah, different backgrounds. I think it's lovely. So, yeah, I'll talk all day about it. As you can probably tell, I love it. Bianca McCall: Thank you so much. And thank you, gosh, for the time, and the space that you carved out for us today. and returning to the, nos platform on the NOCE Dose podcast, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I've learned so much. And you're right. I could sit on the line with you all day and continue the conversation. But unfortunately, we got to get back, to work. Right. And we got to get back to doing the great work that's being done, the incredible work that's being done in these spaces. Thank, you so much for all that you do. Thank you so much for your time. I want to. Bianca: Jillian, thank you for joining us today Before we wrap up today, I want to give you an opportunity to. Any lasting messages that you want to share, any lasting details, any funny stories about being a parent in a professional. but anything you want to leave us with, Jillian? Jillian Anderson: yeah. I think, really, one of the messages that I think is most important is being able to support moms, and destigmatize the experience of perinatal mental health, perinatal substance use. Because the more that we can be accepting of, hey, this is a reality for so many people, the more than those people will be able to get access to care and help and actually then continue to make that ripple effect of they heal themselves so they can heal their relationship with their children, their families, like their friends, and out into the community. Bianca McCall: So important. Gosh, the relationship between mother and child. Right. And, outwardly to, you know, community. Mother, child, family and community. these are. This is important stuff. This is important stuff. And thank you again for. For leading this conversation. I, I love the fact, that we could talk about something a little bit different, right? Because when we're talking about substance use disorder, we're talking about treatment. I think that there's a certain narrative, that follows. Right. but talking about family and talking about, like I said, down to the essential relationship between mother and child. Right, and the essential processes of conception, and through birth, you know, it's not often talked about when we're talking about substance use disorder or, diversion and harm reduction in treatment. And so I'm just extremely grateful, that we could take this different perspective. Right. And look at the issues here and that you allowed me to start off with a little bit of controversy and talk. Jillian Anderson: I love it. Bianca McCall: Yeah. Jillian Anderson: So spicy. Bianca McCall: Great. Yeah, that's what I do. That's what I do. Well, thanks again for joining the NOCE Dose It was an absolute pleasure, and we look forward to continuing the good work with you, Jillian. Jillian Anderson: Absolutely. Thank you so much, Bianca. It was great to be here. Bianca McCall: Thank you. Take care. Bye. The Nostos podcast focuses on the opioid epidemic unplugged Thank you for listening to the NOCE Dose: The Opioid Epidemic Unplugged. We hope that you found this episode compelling and informative, and we ask that you please share this episode with your friends and your colleagues. And if you want to learn more, please visit our website at nvopioidcoe.org. the NOCE Dose podcast is brought to you by the Nevada Opioid Center of Excellence, or NOCE. NOCE is dedicated to developing and sharing evidence informed training and offering technical assistance to professionals and community members alike. Whether you are a care provider or a concerned community member, NOCE provides resources to support those affected by opioid use. Funding for this activity was made possible in whole or in part by the Nevada Department of Health and Human Services directors office through the Fund for a Resilient Nevada Jillian Anderson: CASAT Podcast Network. Jillian Anderson: This podcast has been brought to you by the CASAT Podcast Network, located within the Center for the application of Substance Abuse Technologies, a part of the School of Public Health at the University of Nevada, Reno. For more podcast information and resources, visit casat.org.